Maybe it is just me
Sep. 7th, 2009 10:10 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
willjra.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
dragoncon_lj_archiveMaybe it is just me, but when I read the post on Va Tech fans = Abusive rednecks and then see how 11Alive reports mockingly on DC, it almost seems as if it 11Alive has the attitude that it is okay to mock people who are different. If any of the VA fans talked about in the post were watching that report, I can imagine they would laugh and almost feel validated at their behavior.
Edit:
Either I used the wrong link or the orginal post was edited. Sorry about that to anyone looking for that post.
Edit 2:
Here is the link to the report on the smell of DC.
Edit:
Either I used the wrong link or the orginal post was edited. Sorry about that to anyone looking for that post.
Edit 2:
Here is the link to the report on the smell of DC.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 06:51 pm (UTC)I'm disappointed that DCers felt the need to heckle their fellow congoers based on fandom and I'm sorry it happened to you :(
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 07:21 pm (UTC)Twilight isn't trashy romance at all -- no sex until after marriage, even! It's very innocent compared to most of the vampire fandoms out there (including Buffy). I haven't read any of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, but I've watched all of True Blood and it's way trashier than anything you'll find in Twilight (outside of fanfiction of course, lol).
As far as writing style, I don't think anyone can objectively say that Harry Potter is more well written than Twilight is. It's all a matter of opinion. I create entertainment for a living, so I spend a great deal of time every day thinking about "accessibility" in entertainment -- getting people into it easily, keeping them thinking about it, etc. Personally I found Harry Potter to be the least accessible thing I've ever read that wasn't written by a dead white man. Every single book, I got stuck on the first chapters before Harry got to Hogwarts. Every single time. I still haven't finished the seventh book because of that. The story always picks up and I always enjoy the read, but there are sections of the HP books that just drag, IMO.
Twilight, OTOH, I found to be extremely accessible. The writing is simple and streamlined, and the story flows along quickly. I enjoyed Stephenie Meyer's other, non-YALit book, "The Host", for similar reasons. And my husband really loved all four Twilight books and The Host for the same reasons. It's easy to get into, difficult to put down, and difficult to stop thinking about -- all the things that I try to achieve with my own work. ;)
I didn't come into the Harry Potter fandom until much later (after the 4th book maybe?) so I don't know how things were early on, but I think they may have gone through some of this too -- why would adults read this, it's for kids!, etc. But good writing is good writing, and interesting worlds are interesting regardless of age. And at some point "young adult lit" just means "lacking in smut", which certainly isn't a turnoff for a lot of adults.
There are a lot of derogatory things said about Twilight, for no reason that I can tell (threatened because it's popular? I don't know). The most common seem to be that it's bad writing, it's anti-feminist, and it appeals mostly to girls. To which I say (to them, not you bevander): that's your opinion, assuming you've even taken the time to read it, which you probably haven't; it is not anti-feminist and any arguments saying it is are strawmen that fall flat eventually; and so-fucking-what, since when are girls not allowed to geek out about something they enjoy?
The comments at D*C were at least as bad as those I saw here and on other boards in the months running up to D*C, but I've developed a thick skin about it. Apparently you have to, if you want to be open about enjoying something as tame as YALit vampire stories.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 07:26 pm (UTC)Definitely seems like the most likely reason for people to attack something they haven't read or seen. I don't know if it's because the fanbase is (as you've said) primarily female, or if other fandoms feel an overlap/toes being stepped on. Neither is justification for trying to make someone feel bad on their vacation.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 08:41 pm (UTC)That's pretty much why we mock it. I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said "Vampires Don't Sparkle." That about sums it up. Sorry.
That by no means excuses people being out-and-out rude to you about the stuff you enjoy. Your fandom is your fandom, and if you love it, if it makes you happy and brings out your creativity, that's great. But part of being fandom is being fandom_wanked.
A huge portion of my fandom, Pern, is made up of women and teenage girls, and we've gotten pretty used to being wanked by harder core sci-fi fans -- hell, I'VE wanked our fandom. I mean, seriously, a lot of it is wish fulfillment and bodice ripping. But for those of us who read those books for the sex and death from the sky, glittery, pretty, virginal vampires in high school is hard to swallow if you're older than 12.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 08:58 pm (UTC)WHY does that sum it up?? How does that make any sense whatsoever? It's called different fandoms, different takes on the same old legends. In some fandoms, vampires have to sleep, in others they don't. In some they are repelled by garlic, in others not so much. In some they can't cross running water, but a lot of fandoms ignore that little detail for no particular reason.
In some other vampire fandoms which are currently popular, vampires fly. How does that make any more sense? Vampires sparkling in the sun is at least somewhat related to the old legends. And yet people snark about Twilight, but not fucking flying vampires.
The dragons in Pern are a great deal different than the dragons in, say, Tolkien, or just about anything else. Would it make any sense at all for people to go around wearing shirts that read "Dragons Aren't Telepathic" and saying "that pretty much sums it up"? And how would you feel if they did?
Enjoying books with sex and death doesn't make you an adult, and enjoying books without sex doesn't make you younger than 12.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:07 pm (UTC)Sparkly vampires defangs them. CHASTE sparkly vampires is even worse. Bram Stoker's Dracula, Nosferatu, and shit, even Anne Rice's highly romanticized vampires, are all allegories for sex or the Id or the sublime. Vampires haunt our nightmares. Their violence and abandon is such a part of our cultural consciousness, even little kids at Halloween dress up in fangs and fake blood.
People absolutely have said that Pern's dragons are lame and boring and neutered. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a shirt like that at Dragon*Con. I never HAVE, but then again, Anne McCaffrey's been writing longer than Stephenie Meyer has been ALIVE, and frankly, it's just not cool to hate on her. Either people don't know who she is or they absolutely know who she is, and they know she's got cred.
But check out fandom_wank some time. There's a whole section on Pern. Look up "tent peg" on Google. People have been hating on Pern for years. So what?
Your fandom is brand spanking new. It's going through growing pains. It's had a movie deal staring lots and lots of pretty teenagers who are featured on the cover of US magazine in the grocery aisle. Everything about its marketing makes it look like a soap opera. I don't watch soap operas, and neither do a lot of the people who read Heinlein or Asimov or HP Lovecraft, or who watch Star Wars or Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica, all of which have their own elements of drama and angst.
At a convention of 35,000 people, you need to accept that some of them will think you're lame. Don't let it get you down, just love your fandom and move on.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:22 pm (UTC)That's actually a really good summation of the issue -- vampires in history/mythology are supposed to be primal and violent, not chaste (even though this is usually toned down for mainstream media, i.e. Buffy/etc., the core is still there.) Have you read The Strain (Del Toro & Hogan)? Refreshing departure from the humanized/sexy vampires we see nowadays.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:28 pm (UTC)I think it's easier for me to accept dragons as good and well-meaning because Eastern dragons have pretty much always been bastions of good luck and wisdom. It's mostly the Western ones who do all the pillaging and woman-stealing. Yes, a lot of people think of dragons first as fire-breathers and big lizards, but take them to any Chinese restaurant and they'll recognize the Eastern ones right away.
Vampires, on the other hand, even pre-dating Stoker et al., are designed to horrify AND seduce us. That's part of what makes them so dangerous. Zombies are allegories for blind, mass consumption. Even movies PARODYING zombies render them as diseased brain-eaters. Yeah, you could write a book about good zombies, but... WHY?
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:24 pm (UTC)And anyone who has actually read the books knows that most vampires in the Twilight world are still like that. The main characters aren't, but that's what makes them different and interesting in the context of their world. Just like Angel in Buffy, just like Louis in the Anne Rice books -- they try to go against their natural vampire tendencies, and that makes them interesting. That doesn't mean all the Twilight vampires are cuddly and non-scary.
But you'd have to actually read the books, and not go by whatever hate-filled bullshit you hear people spew about the thing that's popular now.
Your continued implications that someone can't like both Twilight and Star Trek, can't read both Stephenie Meyers and Isaac Asimov are incredibly rude. I don't watch soap operas, but I enjoy fantasy novels. I enjoy them more when I don't have to flip past pages and pages of uncomfortable sex scenes.
Twilight fans at D*C are not 12, we are not new to fandom and geekery in general, and we didn't go to D*C just for Twilight. We're fans, just like everyone else. This sort of verbal attack on Twilight fans would be like going up to people waiting in line for a BSG panel and loudly telling them all the reasons why Star Trek is better than BSG. It's rude. Me liking my fandom and enjoying it at D*C doesn't hurt you at all.
And for the record, I did have a great time at D*C and enjoyed my fandom, despite the rude comments, and despite being the only fandom there that had to put up with people wearing tshirts mocking their fandom. We had a Twilight costume meetup and had a ton of fun together -- but I would bet money that we're the only fandom that had to seriously discuss whether or not meeting in a public place was a good idea, given the amount of hate we'd already had directed at us.
We were worried about hate from other DragonCon fans. And we weren't wrong. That's just sad.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:33 pm (UTC)"I want to eat you, but I can't because I love you" is not compelling to me. At all. I mean, isn't there some thing in the books about how Edward being in love with Bella is him basically being in love with a steak? Who the fuck would be in love with their dinner?
Your continued implications that someone can't like both Twilight and Star Trek, can't read both Stephenie Meyers and Isaac Asimov are incredibly rude.
No, I said I don't like both Twilight and Star Trek. Your own EXPERIENCE should tell you that there are lots of other people who don't like Twilight and Star Trek. It's not being rude, for Chrissake. Are you saying that because you don't discriminate between fandoms, no one else should, and if we do, it's because we're Mean and Hateful?
You're entitled to not like sex scenes because it makes you feel funny in your pants. That's your preference. Don't read those books. I don't read bodice rippers because I think they're banal, but you bet your ass I'd read a good piece of descriptive porn. Again: this comes down to subjectivity. You don't have to like what I like. You may HATE what I like. That's not rude, that's just how it is.
This sort of verbal attack on Twilight fans would be like going up to people waiting in line for a BSG panel and loudly telling them all the reasons why Star Trek is better than BSG. It's rude. Me liking my fandom and enjoying it at D*C doesn't hurt you at all.
No, it doesn't, and I already conceded that people who were straight-up abusive were totally out of line. But people are going to wear t-shirts. They're definitely going to do LJ posts. (Ever been to vampirely.livejournal.com? Hilarious blog by a chick who did stuff like track all the instances of adverbs in Meyers' books.) I mean, that's the internet. That's FANDOM. Are you new here?
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 10:14 pm (UTC)Someone at the Con this year groaned at me when he discovered my love for the new BSG, which he thinks totally sucks. I groaned back, and then we laughed about it. No harm done. Sometimes hashing it out can end up with a good laugh.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-10 07:49 pm (UTC)BZZZT. Sorry, sparky. Almost every fandom gets mocked, both internally and externally. It's part of what makes fandom, well, fandom. We love things to excess, we hate things nobody else bothers to notice, and we care, deeply. But Twilight is not a special and unique snowflake.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 08:45 pm (UTC)I'm 26 years old. I really, really do not give a shit about glorified high school drama. In fact, I'm happy to never have to think about that shit ever again.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:05 pm (UTC)There are plenty of adults who love Harry Potter, Smallville, Buffy, anime, etc. Anyone else you'd like to insult while you're at it? You're really on a roll. Why even go to DragonCon if you're so bothered by so many other fandoms?
Your assumptions and comments are just rude. Sorry you don't like Twilight, but why the hell do you feel the need to tell those who do all the reasons why you think it sucks?
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:15 pm (UTC)...because you ASKED?
"I would love for someone to explain to me why Harry Potter is a mainstay of D*C, but Twilight fans should all die in a fire. Because it's primarily a romance and not an adventure? Because the main character is female and not male? Because most fans are, omg, female?! What is it?"
People don't hate your fandom because they're all sexists and jocks. People hate your fandom because it's derivative and childish. You asked. I'm telling you.
"There are plenty of adults who love Harry Potter, Smallville, Buffy, anime, etc. Anyone else you'd like to insult while you're at it? You're really on a roll. Why even go to DragonCon if you're so bothered by so many other fandoms?"
"So many other fandoms"? I listed, what, three, four?
First of all, I go to D*C to direct my own fandom's track. That's my focus and my interest. Second, I go for BSG, I go for Star Trek and Star Wars, I go for Adult Swim, I go for shopping and people-watching, I go for costuming and socializing.
I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp that enjoying a few nerdy things doesn't necessitate enjoying ALL of them. Ghost in the Shell? Awesome show. Naruto? Keep it the fuck away from me. I don't splooge my panties every time I see any kind of anime, and I don't scream and buy every piece of dragon merchandise I see. I play Warcraft, but I don't play D&D. I bank with BB&T and not Wachovia. I have preferences. Some things are good, some things, not so good. Is this difficult for you? I can enjoy Dragon*Con without wanting to be in a big sparkly love orgy with everyone who attends. I've got priorities. C'est la vie.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:32 pm (UTC)I asked how it's any different from Harry Potter. You didn't address that in the slightest -- probably because you consider yourself too good to read Harry Potter, too. It's your opinion that it's derivative and childish, not a fact.
I don't have a problem with people not liking Twilight. I have a problem with rude people like you who feel the need to loudly share their uninformed opinions. There are plenty of things at DragonCon that aren't my cup of tea, even things that I actively dislike. But I'm not going to name them here, because that's rude. We're all there because we get geeked up about something, usually multiple things. I'm happy letting people enjoy things that I don't enjoy. I don't feel the need to tell them that I hate them and their fandom.
DragonCon is supposed to be the place to let your geek flag fly. Unless you're a Twilight fan, apparently.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:36 pm (UTC)I don't have a problem with people not liking Twilight. I have a problem with rude people like you who feel the need to loudly share their uninformed opinions. There are plenty of things at DragonCon that aren't my cup of tea, even things that I actively dislike. But I'm not going to name them here, because that's rude. We're all there because we get geeked up about something, usually multiple things. I'm happy letting people enjoy things that I don't enjoy. I don't feel the need to tell them that I hate them and their fandom.
"Rude." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I mean, not even wanting to mention stuff you don't like? Do you give strangers blowjobs to be their friends, too? Come on. We don't all have to be BFFs here.
At no point at Dragon*Con did I or anyone I know approach a Twilight fan and say "Fuck you and fuck your fandom." I wouldn't DREAM of it. But trying to explain to you why someone might? That's not rude. That's trying to give you some perspective. If that chafes your chastity belt, sister, it's really no concern of mine.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:47 pm (UTC)Twilight fans haven't done anything to anyone. We aren't asking that everyone likes what we like, or that everyone like everything. We're just trying to enjoy DragonCon like everyone else, without having rude comments hurled at us either at the con or on the D*C boards.
I'm vocally defending a fandom that gets ragged on quite a lot, because there are people out there who are afraid to say they like Twilight, and are afraid to come to DragonCon because of people like you, and people like those who made comments on my costume, and people like those who sat in the back of the Atrium Ballroom Twilight panel and laughed loudly.
How would you like to be afraid to come to DragonCon? That's not the way things should be.
You have basically said "fuck you and fuck your fandom" to me multiple times now. Not to my face, but that's just because like many internet trolls, you are far more brave behind the keyboard than you ever would be in person.
Next year I'll see what I can do to make Twilight fans feel more welcome and more safe at DragonCon. If that makes you throw up in your mouth a little, so much the better.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 09:55 pm (UTC)I don't know how many more times I have to reiterate that verbally abusing people about their costumes or their fandom is completely out of line. I didn't, I wouldn't, and I don't condone it. No one should be afraid to go to Dragon*Con for fear of ridicule, from anyone, for any reason.
I do think your fandom is lame. I really, really do. Me and a bajillion other people. But saying so honestly and in response to a question -- "Why do people think my fandom is more lame than other fandoms?" -- is so vastly different than hurling abuses at you -- as a human being or as a fan -- as to be nearly indistinguishable.
I mean, are you really saying no one should ever criticize your fandom ever, for any reason, constructively or otherwise, period? Because that... that would be really sad.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 10:40 pm (UTC)What I asked is why Harry Potter fans are accepted at D*C, but Twilight fans have to worry about taking photos in public, and have people sitting in the back of their panels making snide comments to the professional actors who are guests of D*C. I'm not asking for opinions on why Twilight sucks, I'm asking for the quantitative differences between Harry Potter and Twilight that makes one ok and the other not.
But it was a rhetorical question to begin with. There is no quantitative difference between Harry Potter and Twilight, nothing that makes one appropriate for D*C and one not. When this happened at SDCC, people threw around lines like "they aren't real fans". Real fans of what? They got up earlier than you to get in line, and you're angry about that. The whole thing is ridiculous, and it's been a rough summer for Twilight fans trying to go to cons.
Part of the greatness of DragonCon is that it's everything all under one roof. It isn't just Star Wars or Pern or goth stuff. It's everything. And there's no reason why Twilighters should be made to feel unwelcome to this party of geekiness.
Honestly it's nice to hear that the HP fans went through this sort of abuse too. Maybe after a few years the idiots will get bored of their snarky tshirts and mean comments and move on.
And thank you for saying again that verbally abusing people about their fandom and/or costumes is out of line. It needs to be said often, because apparently some people haven't gotten the memo.
As far as criticizing -- what would constructive criticism on a fandom even be?? Letters to the author? I like it, you don't, what's there to be constructive about?
But no, I generally don't think criticizing other fandoms is appropriate. Again, it's not constructive, so what's the point? It's fine that you don't like it, but I do, so why should you or anyone else get to ruin my fun at D*C by mocking my fandom? There are shows with big followings at D*C whose writing I can't stand. But I'm not going to tell people waiting in line for a panel that I think their fandom sucks. Nor am I going to post in a topic about a costume meetup for that show and say "oh good, now I know where to go so I can make fun of all of you at once" -- this actually happened to our group.
Having opinions is good, liking what you like and disliking what you don't is great. Talking about it with your friends is fine. Making people feel unwelcome and unsafe because they like something you don't? Not cool. And some people have definitely not gotten that memo.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-08 10:54 pm (UTC)...this is the same thing as asking "Why is that fandom acceptable, but not mine?" I mean, personally, I think the HP people are irritating, too, but they've also been around for 10 years and we've all pretty much gotten used to them. Twilight's the new kid on the block, and a lot of people have problems with it for a lot of reasons. It's highly visible and it's gotten a lot of press. It's easy to mock. It just IS. Even people IN the fandom mock it.
Part of the greatness of DragonCon is that it's everything all under one roof. It isn't just Star Wars or Pern or goth stuff. It's everything. And there's no reason why Twilighters should be made to feel unwelcome to this party of geekiness.
I'm sure there were some legitimately abusive people at the Con, and that's inexcusable. But, no offense, you also seem to be REALLY sensitive to criticism. People who might have just been saying, "Oh, Twilight, well, that's not really my thing" -- they weren't trying to offend or exclude you. It's just the parlance of geekery.
Honestly it's nice to hear that the HP fans went through this sort of abuse too.
EVERYBODY does. That's what I'm trying to TELL you. Star Trek vs. Star Wars. Next Generation vs. Babylon 5. Everyone vs. Voyager. New BSG vs. old BSG. The Stargate movie vs. the Stargate TV franchise. Family Guy vs. South Park. Pern vs. Eragon. Narnia vs. Lord of the Rings. This is a fandom rite of passage. You come through it with some grudging respect or you run away crying.
Maybe after a few years the idiots will get bored of their snarky tshirts and mean comments and move on.
Never. Never never never never NEVER. Sorry. Fandom runs on snark. It is sustained by snark. Two words: Encyclopedia Dramatica. Snark is one of the very best and most entertaining parts of fandom. We hate because we love. And yeah, sometimes we hate because we hate. But that's catharsis.
As far as criticizing -- what would constructive criticism on a fandom even be?? Letters to the author? I like it, you don't, what's there to be constructive about?
New interpretations to old favorites you'd never thought about before? Windows to other series? Perspective? Context? Maybe it's the English degree, but I don't approach ANY piece of literature without thinking about it critically. I was watching the Patrick Stewart Q&A, and someone asked him some question that made him say, "You know, you think you've heard all the questions before, and every time, someone asks you something you'd never thought of before."
No fandom is perfect or invulnerable to critique, ridicule, or reexamination. This is how people communicate with one another. It's not some big circle jerk where everyone pats one another on the back. Learning something new about something you love, even if it's a chink in its armor, can be insightful and informative -- if you don't get so damn defensive every time.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-09 12:25 am (UTC)But I am a bit miffed when people tell me to get out of "their" convention. When people tell me I'm not a "real geek". I'm not offended, I'm not going to cry, but I'm not going to let people get away with that shit. It's my convention as much as it's theirs, and I shouldn't have to prove my geekiness to anyone.
You've already said that you don't think it's cool for people to verbally abuse others for their fandom or costumes. Well, that's what I'm bothered by. I didn't come here looking for attention, I didn't start a "you guys are so mean!" thread. In a thread about people being mocked by football fans, I pointed out that, ironically, I was mocked by fellow DC'ers in a similar fashion. You've agreed that isn't cool. I'm not being defensive, I'm not overreacting. I had a bad experience, and I'm trying to spread the word that this sort of thing isn't cool no matter what fandom it's directed at.
And why be so vocal? Because I have a thick skin and this stuff won't keep me up at night, but most Twilight fans aren't that brave. I've gotten PMs thanking me for bringing this up. I've gotten PM's thanking me for organizing the Twilight costume meetup, because other people were too scared of the reaction at the con to do it. There are people out there -- fellow DragonCon attendees -- who are scared to admit to liking something because of how abusive others are when it comes to this fandom. That is fucked up.
As far as other fandoms "abusing" each other, I certainly didn't see any of it all weekend, and I would have been appalled if I did. There's good natured snark between fans, and then there's abuse. Think anyone asked Shatner and Nimoy why they bothered coming to D*C since Star Wars is so clearly better?
no subject
Date: 2009-09-09 12:30 am (UTC)That is fucked up. It probably also happens in just about every fandom. You should absolutely take steps to make it stop happening, but the cold hard truth is that it probably won't. This year it's Twilight. Next year, it'll be something else.
As far as other fandoms "abusing" each other, I certainly didn't see any of it all weekend, and I would have been appalled if I did. There's good natured snark between fans, and then there's abuse. Think anyone asked Shatner and Nimoy why they bothered coming to D*C since Star Wars is so clearly better?
No, but I'm sure there were plenty of people who didn't bother to see Shatner/Nimoy because they suck so hard, or people who sat in the back and snickered, or people who watched in their rooms and systematically deconstructed every question and answer into its composite parts of bullshit. There were probably people who thought "That costume looks like shit" because the insignia was half an inch to the left, or because the gold braid wasn't official.
People find all kinds of reasons to be MEAN. And even us snarkers would say that isn't cool. But the snark? It's still going to happen.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-14 05:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-10 07:51 pm (UTC)