Support the Dealer's Room

[archway.livejournal.com]

Freelancing is a tough road. Lots and lots of artists, merchants, designers, etc. actively try to make a living doing it. Travelling and working cons is WORK. The dealers rooms are places you can find things you just can't find anywhere else from some of the coolest people you would ever want to meet. Is it cheap? No. If you simply wanted to save a few bucks, go to Target.

In that same line, don't hamstring the dealers that PAID A LOT OF MONEY to have tables by side-stepping them and going to people that haven't paid the equivalent of Guild fees. It is just terrible Con Karma. If the dealers can't make ends meet, they don't come back. If they don't come back, how can you get that one-of-a-kind item? What would the con be like with a crappy dealer's room?

Is this a popular comment? No. Doing the right thing rarely matches doing the popular thing.

Thanks for listening...

Comments

[ydnic.livejournal.com]

Not to try and sound clueless here (although, yeah, I know, I am...), I think the dealers' room is excellent and I usually drop quite a bit of cash there, but who are these non-paying folks? I can't recall seeing any dealers outside the room, but then again, that's not what I'm usually looking for at cons...

[archway.livejournal.com]

Some dealers work outside of the dealer's room to save money. They offer wares at a lower price because they aren't having to make back the money they paid for the tables.

(I didn't know about them either. I usually am so busy I don't notice. That has changed. I'm just speaking up.)

[electricsoup.livejournal.com]

i feel like you're talking to a particular circumstances and preaching as if most of us don't already do this. (not to mention, it's my money and it goes where i want it to go. i WORKED HARD TO GET ALL THAT MONEY that i will be spending. :))

i have no idea what you're talking about with 'side-stepping' and 'hamstringing' - please define.

[archway.livejournal.com]

Actually, I assumed most if not all of you knew this. I will be spending my cash, too.~S~
Side-stepping= going outside of the dealer's room for the same or similiar product
hamstringing= hurting the dealers by doing so because they have already shelled out a world of cash to be in the right place and follow the Con guidelines. If they don't make back what they have paid, they are in the red...ie. hamstringed.

[wiebke.livejournal.com]

I love the dealers' room. I've gone to D*C three times and got some wonderful things each time. I'm not into some of the more dominant items sold, like comic books, DVDs, weapons, games, etc., but I love the dealers who specialize in jewelery and clothes. Some of my best jewelry comes from con dealer rooms. Everybody asks me where I get it and when I say D*C, they're like, "They sell jewelry there?" LOL. I also got an amazing vintage poster from that poster dealer who I believe is an every-year type dealer, plus some great original art prints. So I really appreciate the dealer hall.

[archway.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the art is fantastic, no question. What's your vintage poster?

[wiebke.livejournal.com]

A giant poster for this 1952 film Babes in Bagdad, starring Paulette Goddard & Gypsy Rose Lee. They appear rather scantily clad. I took a picture of it a while back:



It's right next to me now, framed and hanging next to my office desk :)

[archway.livejournal.com]

Oh that is GREAT! Thanks for putting it up. I have never heard of the flick, but the art is nice!

[wiebke.livejournal.com]

I'd never heard of it either, as it was a B movie, but man, I had to have it!

[archway.livejournal.com]

...the movie too or just the poster?

[tonithegreat.livejournal.com]

I buy art at DC every year, too. Usually I try to buy originals from new artists in the art show, but I've also gotten beautiful prints in the dealer rooms. Interestingly, I've also heard some mad hot debate in the scifi/fantasy/horror artists forum/yahoogroup that is run by DC's art director that's kind of related to this topic. I got the impression from what was said there that the fees in DC's dealer rooms are sky-high enough that an unestablished artist could never afford to be in the dealer rooms at all. And, of course, now the DC art show, which is pretty cheap (though certainly not free- I think a single panel for auction starts at 40 bucks, with higher prices for tables, or to have prints in the print shop) for artists get space in, especially considering it's quality, is juried. It was interesting, because the artists on that list were getting defensive concerning the jury process and one of their biggest beefs was that people with practically mass produced stuff were trying to get into the art show, because the fees there are so much less than dealer room fees.

[archway.livejournal.com]

~nodnodnod~ Yeah, the new faces in art are backed up against the wall. Breaking into the gig is a nightmare. Yes, the fees in the dealers are nasty. Yes, the artshow is juried. The rules changed.

[fatfred.livejournal.com]

Dealers is $400 for 6x6.
Exhibtors is $1000 for 10x10.

FYI

[http://users.livejournal.com/spooksquad_/]

The jury thing...don't even get me started on that. *L*

I'm on the same art list, and have seen the debating over that pop up time and time again. :D

[tonithegreat.livejournal.com]

I actually signed off the list this year as the debating was at it's peak. It was a good list, too, but I'm not serious enough about my art to wade through that many e-mails every day. Not even in digest form. :-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/spooksquad_/]

I know!! *L* I mean, occasionally there is a huge debate going that I can't not get into, (once or twice started by me I guess), but overall I delete the digests when they come and maybe once a week glance over the topics at the site and see if anything catches my eye. I just don't have time to read them all the time. I do attend the chats from time to time though. Since I am not yet putting my own stuff into con shows, I don't keep up with the art show tips and methods and such so much.

[caravankidd.livejournal.com]

Sadly I'm still quite a few years off before I can afford to drop much money in the dealers room.

Honestly though I do respect the tough road the dealers have to walk just to make a buck. Given what the con attendies have to spend on badges and hotel rooms that leaves fewer bucks for the dealers to go after. Oh smeg and given how much dealers have to shellout for space to sell their wares it's some serious business magic for them to walk out with a profit.

I'll be so glad when I actually have some money to spend because you are right about it being full of so much cool stuff that you don't have to pay shipping and handling on :)

[archway.livejournal.com]

See, this is a situation where a lot of people having the winning lottery numbers would help LOTS of people.~G~

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

The cynic in me wants to point out that the consumer can do with their money exactly what they wish to do, and if they frequent a supplier that they consider more beneficial to their consumption, this might push higher-priced suppliers out of the market, true ... but this would, in turn, force the lowering of some of the borderline insane table fees D*C is requiring of interested suppliers. If those fees drop, then costs drop for all consumers, and some (mainly folks who consume at D*C, ie. pretty much everyone) wins out.

Basic capitalist economics. And part of the reason Guilds and their onerous fees went the way of the dodo.

When seen as an advertising overhead fee for priority positioning, the cost of a dealer's table is not the concern of the consumer, except so much as it serves to drive up prices. If suppliers can function in the same space without that advertising and remain sufficiently profitable, so be it.

Frankly, the only thing to be asked of Convention attendees is vote with your wallet. If you don't patronize the dealer's room folk, they may or may not consider resulting sales to be worth their advertising investment. Contrarily, you might drive up desire and costs for tables and goods by increasing demand for said tables ("If we do this well on the 12th floor, how much better in the dealer's room?").

QED: Basically, the best action for us, as consumers is the same as that in the stock market: Buy low, sell high. Just as there's never a shortage of stock suppliers, there will never be a shortage of folk looking to sell to 40,000 captive consumers.

[archway.livejournal.com]

Do what works for you. I'm simply practicing freedom of speech.~S~

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

As am I. The freedom to express a point of view is not freedom from criticism.

Its definitely worth pointing out that the behaviour you are advising is unlikely to achieve the aim you desire. Which one assumes is maximizing profit for the dealers while minimizing costs for the guests; if that's not your aim, well, it might be in the best interests of communication to express it directly.

ok, hold the phone

[sinfulpixie.livejournal.com]

I'll assume that you're writing this in response to my post earlier today.
First, I did not expect the response to my entry to go as extreme as it is right now. I'm glad to help out all the girls with their make-up, seeing as how in the last 4 years I've attended all 4-days of DragonCon, I have never seen any such make-up counters anywhere, nor hair accessories therefore, and maybe I'm jumping the gun to assume, but who would I be taking business away from? It's not like MAC has a booth in the dealer's room.
Secondly, I am not a corporation, I'm not a high priced artist, I'm a college grad, whose making $9.00 per/hr at a call center in Florida with an eye for cosmetics and color. All of the make-up I'm using is my own personal stuff, I'm not selling cosmetics, just the application. And before you go assuming that I'm screwing over the hard working artists, 3 of those hard working artists will be my suite mates and suggested this as a way for us to pay for the high fees they will have in the dealer's room, as well as the hotel prices for the weekend (BTW, go see Andy Lee and Power Bomb Press with Bukshot!!) , and I'll say this politely, quit steppin on my toes like I'm doing something wrong.
And just FYI, in case you were unsure of it, I pulled this from the Community rules that are posted on the Info page of THIS journal...

9. SHAMELESS D*C SELF PROMOTION - Shameless Self promotion and plugging of your D*C panel/booth/event/concert/meetup/etc. is a big reason this community was created to begin with and is highly encouraged. However, spamming up the community with excess repeated plugging where other folks cant get a plug in WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Shamelessly plug yourself, but be considerate of other members and give them a chance to plug themselves as well.

I have made one small post, granted it's gotten more hits than most of the other things on here lately, but I didn't repeat it,I didn't force it on anyone, and I posed a question and got an unanimous response. Please stop bringing a negative light to my poor artistic eye. Thank You, Laura

Re: ok, hold the phone

[archway.livejournal.com]

I completely understand why you are concerned. Money is money. Everybody has to follow what they think is right. Saying what I said was right for me. What you replied is, I assume, right for you.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[nisie.livejournal.com]

I was thinking that your service is something better left to being done in the privacy of a room than on the dealer floor.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[sinfulpixie.livejournal.com]

i was thinking the same, i'm not one to powder my nose in public either.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[lorenalis.livejournal.com]

I thought I read somewhere through here a proposal to add a services area to the con. While there is the ever present problem of logistics (ie. where to put it) I believe this would be a wonderful idea. I'm sure there are folks who would love to have a place at con where they could go for make-up services or a massage. These areas would need to have some privacy, which is not offered at all in the dealers room and only in the Exhibitors Hall if you bring stuff to create your own private areas such as changing rooms.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[http://users.livejournal.com/spooksquad_/]

Make-up and face painting services are offered in public, booths, what have you, all the time. Many artists prefer working in public too, so that others can see their work and possibly step up to have something done.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[nisie.livejournal.com]

And some women, like myself, would prefer not to be stared at as they put on makeup.

Re: ok, hold the phone

[http://users.livejournal.com/spooksquad_/]

Sure, the few times that I do serious makeup, I don't need an audience either. Wasn't talking about that though, I meant, in general, the make-up/face painting service is not something that has to be done in privacy, it's often done at a table or booth during events. Since Pixie doesn't have either, cool she's doing it from where she wants.

Actually, I'm going to be doing face & body painting...

[marrus.livejournal.com]

...not in the dealer's room, but in the art room. I'll also be selling prints of my paintings while I'm at it. I've been doing this at Dragoncon, as well as a bunch of other events around the country, for years.

I'm not a corporation and I don't have underlings serving my every whim. This is the only way I make a living, and I set up my schedule months in advance to ensure I have a table from which to work. I don't mind a little healthy competition in the dealer's room, but if you're planning on making money at a con, the ethical thing is to rent a table, just like the rest of us.

Re: Actually, I'm going to be doing face & body painting...

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

You know, every year the art room gets more crowded and more overwhelmingly dense. The last thing I really want to deal with is a knot of folks right there at the side of the already narrow aisle. I'm almost willing to suggest that the reduced cost of your compeditor's entry is worth not having to walk all over them, from my perspective as a consumer.

Density of the art room notwithstanding...

[marrus.livejournal.com]

...what appears to be under discussion are the ethics of selling out of a room when other vendors are paying to be there.

I've worked ren faires where we had nothing but rain all weekend. Patrons didn't show up, no one made any money, but the vendors ensured that the faire would last by supporting it with their booth fees.

Pehaps, given the demand for dealers who do body make-up, massage, henna, hair extensions, the Dragoncon powers that be might consider a separate "services" area?

Re: Density of the art room notwithstanding...

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

Well, the ethics of it are really moot, as I see it. I mean, its like debating the ethics of whether you must see a return on your advertising dollar, and if you don't, that the public has a responsibility to compensate you. That's prima facia ludicrous, and such is the suggestion that we, as the public consumers at D*C, are responsible for making sure the dealers who show turn a profit, no matter the state of competition. That's inane.

Perhaps the D*C convention chair might consider such, but given the generalized tightness of venue space as it is, it begs the question of where on Earth it'd go. Services vendors would want/demand to be near the dealer's room/exhibit halll, a place where there's not much space to put them. Unless you're suggesting they add a wing on to the Hyatt, which would make space somewhat cost-prohibitive.

And this sidesteps the issue of whether or not we, as consumers, have any ethical reason to prefer to spend more at a dealer's table than at a private individual's room. By that same argument, its unethical for you to offer a dealer's service from an art table, as unfair competition to the notional service renderer who might, possibly, have taken a dealer table.

Good attempt at a sidestep, though.

Ultimately, the argument you're putting forth is weak on logical bounds, and horribly broken on economic reasoning grounds.

(Now, if D*C has a rule in place which is signed by all badge owners which says you can't engage in commercial activity out of your room, its even less the responsibility of the civitas to eschew such services. Its D*C's rule; if they can't enforce it, its not my responsibility to. Moreover, if they have no such rule, there is likewise no incumbent responsibility on me to act counter to my best interests and throw more money at something than I have to.

Simple, really.)

By your argument...

[marrus.livejournal.com]

If you own a bookshop, pay rent to the landlord and taxes to the state, spend a good chunk on advertising directing people to your location, someone can come along with a cart, set up in front of your shop, and proceed to sell books with impunity. Hey, it's a free market, right?

I never made the suggestion that the public consumers were responsible for ensuring the dealers turn a profit. What I did say is the money that the vendors pay to the festival ensures that many of its costs can be met - regardless of patronage.

Ultimately, the festivals I've attended all have had strict policies on unregulated vendors, and will happily revoke badges when they catch them, usually citing health & tax code violations.

Re: By your argument...

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes, they can, for the minimal cost of getting a business license. And if they have more of what the public wants, at a lower price, they can easily force you out of business.

It also suggests you're a pretty lousy merchant of books, if they can.

I think its safe to say that the dealer's room/exhibit hall table costs aren't paying the D*C costs. I suspect, at best, they're covering the floor space for the vast area the hotel's giving them. If there's less demand for the space, the space'll shrink, and cost's'll change. The rest of the Con won't blink.

The original poster's contention is (or was, since we have yet to see clarification) that the public should find it in their best interest to avoid buying things from non-dealer's/exhibit vendors in order to keep said vendors around. That's invalid at the most basic levels. The elaboration I've seen from other folks hasn't made it any more tenable.

[everyinchofme.livejournal.com]

I know at most conventions purchasing goods from vendors *outside* of the dealer's room (aka those not registered with the convention), is against convention rules.

But as most have said, what you do with your almighty dollar is your business.

[growly.livejournal.com]

Hear hear! Some of my most favorite things came from the dealer's room, stuff I've never found since. :D

[joeydiablo.livejournal.com]

Not all types of business suitable for the convention are able to work out of the confines of the booth. Massage, photography and make up among other services that may reequire a more intimate setting. Conventions are also about meeting people and promotiong your business to your target market however you can. It's like saying we shouldn't go to the mall or shop on ebay while we're at the convention.

Doing the Right Thing?

[scott-st-james.livejournal.com]

I can't say I agree with the ethics you present and not only because I imagine those thoughts stem from bias. I can't prove or substantiate that, I admit. I just get the hunch that you are a dealer yourself or have some type of close relationship with someone who makes their living or supplements their income by slinging goods at convention "crap-marts".

Buying a space at convention's dealer room is essentially the purchase of eyes upon the dealer's product. That's it. Everyone knows the area is there for vending so people go there to look around and see if they like the crap that's in there. The idea that people with products or services outside of the dealer's room somehow legitimately threaten the ability of folks in the dealer's room to make money is pretty ludicrous when it's all said and done. The only way that someone could do such a thing is if they rented a hotel room for the 3 nights (which may or may not be more expensive than a table in the dealer room), turned the room into a miniature store with lights, shelving, displays, etc, and LITTERED the entire convention with leaflets or flyers directing people to the room. Truth is, I don't even know the legality of such a thing, which only adds to my point.

Furthermore, I feel compelled to ask if you've ever used a P2P service to download music or software, i.e. Napster, Kazaa, Limewire, WinMX, etc. If so, as it pertains to ethics, your argument would be shot completely to hell.

And lastly, the terms 'convention dealer room' and 'business ethics' should never come within a nautical mile of one another. While I know, there are a lot of good folks in these dealer's rooms with original, licensed, and many times flat out amazing products, I along with everyone else know that there is nearly as much unlicensed, pirated, or otherwise ripped off garbage there.

All said and done, while I apologize for coming off like a crusader, I can assure you I'm certainly not. I rarely buy anything out of the dealer's room or anywhere else except for the bar. I show up, drink a lot of booze, stare at pretty girls, and hope against hope for wrestling matches to break out in the anime room.

So it's nothing personal.

Ya did kinda come out with yer guns blazin', though.

[osondrea.livejournal.com]

I'll buy what I love, wherever I find it. That's all.

[billzabub.livejournal.com]

I'll be avoiding the Money Pit like the plague.

[kerrinne.livejournal.com]

I don't think that room can hold any more than it already does. I mean, heck, it's already impossible to walk through that place without having to stop for people blocking the aisle every four inches. Not to mention, it's so incredibly hot there because it is so packed in. I say if someone wants to sell a product or service outside of the dealer room, they might be better off. I only go in the dealer's room once per con, because it's so freaking miserable in there to us crowdaphobics and claustraphobics. Not to mention, that place is really a fire hazard IMHO with that many people packed in there; I sure wouldn't want to be down there in one. Location is a big part of selling, and I think that location stinks.

[ne.livejournal.com]

Do you go to just the downstairs one in the basement or the other two exhibit halls upstairs where there are vendors as well?
All three areas are filled with booths the ones upstairs are a bit less crowded but downstairs has some artists that are truly worth going in there for ie Ruth Thompson, Nene Thomas, etc.
Also some of the booths downstairs carry clothing that you don't find upstairs and the same is true for the upstairs.