BULLYING. IS. WRONG.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

And the community should stand up against it. We've had issues with drunk frat-boys, Nascar fans, and the underbelly of fandom showing it's face. I'd like to shine a light on some Internet drama I've found from the Facebook community.

There is a rising amount of Ghostbusters fan-groups attending both the con and the Parade. The level of costuming has been fantastic and I've personally never had any issue with any member of the various groups that combine at the Parade. Last year we had, I believe 7 Ecto-1's at the con!!

The drama is that one particular group, http://www.gbfans.com , has decided that using Kickstarter for fundraising is somehow wrong and insulting to them. They've started a campaign of harassment and threats because one fan DARED not go by methods they personally approve.

I found the issue on the FB page of Dragoncon (edit: Either the OP or the owner of the page has removed the post) and their own forum topic, where it contains threats and justification for bullying. A now locked thread where the Moderator espouses "Kicking people around" because they offend you.

As a community, it's my opinion that we should respond to this. That sort of nonsense, online or at the parade, has no place at Dragoncon.

Comments

[elvishtard.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, in costuming, there are a mega-ton of elitists out there. You'll never please them, so don't try. The rule of thumb is to do your own thing and let the haters hate. Do what your mom told you to do, and ignore them. Unless they are physically harassing you, tell them to fuck the hell off.

Make your costuming how ever the hell you feel like it. I saw some of this discussion, and the girl only did that because it was a way to get her family and friends to support her project. More power to her if she actually got the dough she needed in order to start her GB stuff!

All fandom "groups" have their extremists. Where you have to go through a rigorous process in order to be accepted.

It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Sure you can take absolute pride in what you created, but being a douchebag is never called for.

[arma-padawan.livejournal.com]

As president of the dead ends hearse club, and close personal friends with one of the members of the georgia ghostbusters, i and DEHC stand behind the georgia ghostbusters and their right to set standards of conduct for their group.

[trybutez.livejournal.com]

No one is arguing that a group has the right to set standards for members that choose to participate. The complaint is that this group is trying to, or gives the appearance of trying to, set the standard for all groups- whether they are part of it or not. I think.

[sparr0.livejournal.com]

The project in question isn't part of their group.

[wiccanslyr.livejournal.com]

Having standards/rules/guidelines about joining and being within your group is fine, and is not, in fact, the issue at hand here.

Having standards DOES NOT give said group the "right" to go around bullying people, especially ones who are not even in (nor who have ever expressed interest in joining) said group, who do not met those standards. Which is exactly what happened in this case.

[audreyscastle.livejournal.com]

I agree that groups have a right to set standards, but these people were not members of the group, so they were not violating any group rules.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, using Kickstarter for something like this does make me kind of uncomfortable. But on the other hand, bullying and harassing are completely wrong, and there is no excuse for that sort of behavior.

[abreeskye.livejournal.com]

After reading all the posts everywhere, I know to stay away from the gb group, lol.

Personally, I would never use Kickstarter for something like that. I can't beg people for money for my costumes, if I can't afford it I just save until I can, or make do with whatever I can. HOWEVER, I'm not going to fault them for doing it themselves, I just can't do stuff like that personally.

I mean, seriously, if you don't like someone's kickstarter project, just don't donate. Don't try to "get them in trouble" with kickstarter or whatever. That's lame.

I understand that people work really hard on their costumes, and it sucks to work really hard on something, then see someone, in their view, just given everything. But that's the way of the world. It's no reason to be rude and obnoxious to your fellow fans!

I feel bad for the girl that was pretty much trashed by the GB group. Some fans are just plain assholes.

[onyxwolf]

Bullying is never acceptable and any group that has to have it their way or the highway needs to get their priorities in order.

[phantomminuet.livejournal.com]

I was intrigued by the commentary, so I read through that tedious excuse for a discussion thread.

I want my 2 1/2 minutes back.

[geminiknight.livejournal.com]

What's that quote about not wanting to be a member of any club that would have me?

Fuck these guys... nobody twisted arms and forced folks to visit the kickstarter page, much less fund their project. If they're pissed because somebody put it out there and asked for help, then that's their problem, and I wouldn't want to associate with them to begin with.

[jillmaddoxcm.livejournal.com]

One must be adult and mature and proud of their own work to do their own thing. Don't look for justification or acceptance from any one group. If you want to be a part of the group then you must conform to the group standard. If you do not wish to conform then you will not be part of that group.

Dragon Con attracts many passionate obsessive compulsive people. You have to be able to step back and not get worked up.

[wiccanslyr.livejournal.com]

The point is that the people with the Kickstarter never so much as expressed any interest in joining the group in question. However, some of the members of the group in question still decided to take it upon themselves to harass, bully and attempt to ostracize the Kickerstart group for daring to go outside of their particular GB group's "standards".

In other words, these people are trying to be fandom police and see nothing wrong with their gross behavior.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

First off, Thank you to the Mod team for finally approving this topic. I will do my utmost to keep it civil and in in the spirit of communication. (...and a general apology for my spam. Late nights and anger do not excuse rudeness, I was, I apologize.)

I agree with many of the sentiments already stated. Policing one's group of friends/fans etc is a right. Denying a group it's own ability to converse or punish it's own members is arrogant and excessive. This was not a case of that. The group in question found the Kickstarter offensive, but lacked the means to intervene as the effort was fully funded. The GB group then started threatening, emailing and calling for exclusion because they disagree with the concept of public funding.

The individuals involved have not retracted their threats, but SOME of the Moderators have backed off from the ire. When I tried to calm the situation down, and speak rationally, it went rather poorly. I tried the chatroom, got a moderator talking to me.. but he called me "Just as bad as the people in the thread" and then the insults started.

I am not calling for THEIR exclusion. But I stand with Kristian in her right to march in the parade unmolested. We, as a community, are up in arms over the fratboy/Nascar incidents. We shouldn't have any of our own doing worse.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

You are entitled to your opinion. There is some truth to what you say. But while there are more serious assaults that have happened, the title to the thread is unchanged. Bullying is not right. Sending threatening emails, threatening exclusion and quite possibly more (Missed the comment "The only way they'll ever "get it" is if people bitchslap them around. " did you??)

The Internet can be an ugly place. Real life can be a rotten experience all around. Dragoncon is a nice relaxing and fun time for me. Nipping ugliness like this, in the bud, makes a better experience all around. Can we stop every small-minded idiot? Surely not. Can we even change the bullies minds about how WRONG this is? I doubt it.

I made as many people as I could, aware of the situation. I tried to reason with the perpetrators. I am objecting to a bad situation and trying to make it better. That is not making a Mountain... It's climbing it!

[jillmaddoxcm.livejournal.com]

LIKE

[pixiekingtom.livejournal.com]

The point that he's trying to make there, if I'm reading it right, is that we deal with so many attacks and abuse from outside groups then why go out of our way to attack other fans?
Especially when the attacks are personal against someone who isn't even affiliated with their group.
I mean, hell...we as geeks can be elitist over our fandoms, our games, our costumes, why not just say "I don't want to see any of you doing this" instead of "ZOMG LOOKIE WHAT SHE DID! GIT HER!!"

BTW:Adorable user pic

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

I know!! ( might not be talkin bout me.. but since this is custom art from geeksnextdoor.com Ahma kinda biased!!)

[pixiekingtom.livejournal.com]

You know I'd squeeze that perky red bum of your. And your wife would cheer me on. And take pics

[wiccanslyr.livejournal.com]

Please do not "blow off" this kind of bullying just because there isn't violence, or the threat of violence.

I think (and I'm not the OP so this is just my interpretation) the point that was attempting to be made by posting this here was to have the D*Con community "at large" show/say that this kind of behavior isn't okay so that maybe, next time this type of thing has the potential to happen people will stop and THINK twice about it before it does.

The "geek/nerd/dork" community gets enough of this kind of bullying nonsense from the outside, we really shouldn't have to worry about getting it from amongst ourselves too.

So, no, I don't think it's "making a mountain out of a molehill".

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

I object to your objection. I clearly stated that I thought the community should respond. I never asked for banishment, punishment or anything other than recognition. I have had some of the best "Geek moments" of my life at Dragoncon. That, from someone who played D&D from PAMPHLETS is saying something.

To have the community recognize and watch out for this potential problem is what I wanted. To have the community of GB fans look at more than one online gathering place and see that this is not acceptable behavior is what I wanted.

YOU decided that my words and this topic were belittling sexual assault and rape. You were wrong in that assumption.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

No, you've just proven that you can not discuss things without petty sniping and unreasonable assumptions. You put words in my mouth to make your own words sound better. Let the adults talk now.

[wicked0witch.livejournal.com]

As someone who was one of the targets of an attempted assault at D*C 2010 (got away and the guy got arrested), I agree with you. While internet bullying is horrible (i've been the target of that too, and 4chan was the reason I almost killed myself last year, and even now a year later I still get people that have gotten ahold of my email or go anon on my blogs telling me to go kill myself), I agree that this feels like it's being blown out of proportion. Yes, it's unfortunate that someone feels bullied by another group, but it's not any business of this comm. The group isn't stopping (and really can't stop) the people from marching in the parade at all, just not with their group, which isn't against any rules of the con.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

Actually, you are incorrect. On many levels, actually. The only people who are making the assumption that the sexual assaults are being listed as :"JUST AS BAD" are you two. No-one has said that. AT ALL.

Also, these people were collaborating on filling out false forms to the DC office, so that there would be no room for the Kickstarter's group.

Also, they sent threatening emails to the fund owner.

Also there is that whole "Smack them around" comment...

And since the thread is locked and the FB post is deleted, it is over.

Being oversensitve on certain issues might just lead you to be undersensitive to others... You might want to think on that..

[wicked0witch.livejournal.com]

As I can't see the posts that show they were saying or not saying that, I can't make any judgement without facts. I was simply agreeing with her that your post here came off as trying to cause drama.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

The original thread is still available to read, and the other things that happened, I've already discussed. Disagreeing is kinda allowed on the Internet.. You are entitled to your opinion. I have stated my reasons and intentions. If you choose to think I am lying, again your choice.

I love marching in the parade. I found it offensive that someone was being threatened with exclusion over what is basically opinion. I said something. I happen to think I was restrained in my posting.

[twitchsey.livejournal.com]

So this will probably cause some flak just from the nature of my post. I will state that I've lost a bit of interest in ever following through with a ghost buster build that would ever take me near this group because of how they would treat an interested person in a hobby. Bullying shouldn't be ignored because its "mild" or "not a physical action." It still is just wrong.

That being said, as a member of a Fraternity in college, and a huge nerd/geek/member of a lot of fan groups, I find it mildly amusing and a bit ironic that this thread is constantly using "Frat-Boys" as a derogatory term to denote a certain stereotype. And, while some people may fit that stereotype, I really see no difference between this, or people assuming everyone who likes sci-fi/fantasy don't shower/meet every stereotype that may exist about the fandom world.

Last year was my first dragon con, and I honestly wasn't comfortable with talking to some of the otherwise great people I met with my college years because being in a fraternity was a big part of it for me. It wasn't the stereotype portrayed by those who seem to think its all awful and all hazing. We were a group of guys who lived in a house together, had some Greek letters to associate with, and did things like community service together and had weekly D&D games for a few of us. But, I worried people would be off put by that part of my past.

In a way its silly. im used to the criticism from people who think fraternities are antiquated and lead to derogatory behavior, and im used to the jokes directed at me because of my choice in hobbies/interests. its just funny to agree with an argument against bullying, while simultaneously being bullied by those trying to argue against it.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

Twitchsey... You have a point.

I try and admit when I am wrong, and a blanket generalization is one of those times. Whether it would be a clarification of "the bad element" or some other point that does not point to all fraternities as oversexed drunkards. The fact that many of the people who do NOT fall into that classification can be heard encouraging that stereotype does not make it right.

"One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch.." or so Donny Osmond used to sing.. My apologies for my part in lessening your experience. There are some problems, but I will try and refrain from blanket accusations in the future.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

Just a note folks. Disagreeing with me is your right. Liking me is not required to converse here. Glasscannon has just about reached my limit of patience and politeness. I have rechecked my comments, and in no way, shape or form have I EVER said that the groping attacks were anything less than a crime. The only thing I have ever done was mention them. Being hypersensitive to certain situations due to life experiences is expected. Most children experience one or more forms of bullying in their lifetime, I know I had more than my own share.

When you start inventing reasons to be angry, it's time to take a step back.

What the community decides to do about this situation is not for me to decide. I have not contacted the Dragoncon office, and I just might. My purpose was to expand awareness of a potential problem to a large online group. The Facebook page has a certain limited number of readers, so does this group. The more people who know of a potential problem, the more likely an intervention IF there is a problem. There is also the fact that peer pressure is effective in behavior modification. Some bullies thrive on negative attention. This seemed more like a simple gathering of unpleasant people, egging each other on. In reading other parts of the GB board, they seem like regular fans. I have never called for their exclusion, and unless something changes, I never will.

Now.. people with personal issues and bad communication skills aside... What does the community think we should do? I have my own ideas, but I'd listen to suggestions. My idea, a simple link to the original thread, the FB post and here. Send it to the DC office so they know that a specific group has acted poorly and just notify them of a potential problem. I have tried the traditional method of talking first. It didn't seem like the offending people really GOT it. It really hasn't escalated to anyone needing to be told not to attend on ANY side of this, and I do not think it should. Perhaps DC getting involved and simply saying "Shut up and enjoy the parade" is in order. No exclusions, no drama, just fans and waving at the norms!!

[wicked0witch.livejournal.com]

Honestly it's not up to you. If you're going to report that group, then there's about 200 other groups you can report too. There are people in the 501st or rebel legion or Wolfpack Elite guilty of the exact same things (and that's not a blanket statement. Most of the people i've met from all those groups have been amazingly nice)

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

My actions are always up to me.

I am conversing with the LJ portion of the DC fanbase. Nothing is absolute. I do not know everything, and sometimes I like to run things by other like minded folk, to check my perspective.

I have never heard of the 501's dark side before. But if I went to Ren Faire for years and opted out of the SCA due to the constant oppressive drama and politics.. I can easily see that.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

As the OP or the owner has removed the post (and I am not sure, but I think the OP had asked to "Let it die") I am saying my last words on this subject. I'll be at the parade. I am not going to mar my Dragoncon with arguments. I will not, however, stand by and pretend people being harassed, is acceptable to me. If I have to intervene, I have a camera, more cops around than the Rosebowl parade, and my own Military training.

Be excellent to each other!

[real-gb-at-dc.livejournal.com]

Hello, all- actual GB chiming in here. I’d like to take a few moments to address the situation at large. First off, not every GB is supporting this nonsense. Please don’t lump us all into one group. I believe someone said earlier something about not all frat boys are evil? Well, we’re not either. While there are quite a few people being nasty over on GBFans.com, please know that they do not represent the opinions of the majority. Ghostbusters ARE NOT organized like the 501st, or any of your other “standardized” costuming groups. There is no central “head” or anything like that. Any GB group you meet is a local group, with their own local rules and standards. What that means is that GBFans.com is just a fan-site. That’s it. They’re not “in charge” of us, or anything like that. Anything they say should NOT be used to hold the rest of us accountable.

The truth is, the GBFans.com forums are well-known among most of the GB groups as a place of nastiness and harsh judgments. They delight in starting trouble over there. They are a cesspit of troublemaking, but unfortunately, sometimes you have to go over there because it is a good place to find that rare GB comic or toy for sale, or parts you need for your build. Most of us don’t post or even read the boards. So please, don’t judge us all under the actions of a few rabid fans with a little too much free time on their hands. Mostly, we’re fun people, who like to make appearances to entertain folks, drive our Ectos with all the lights blazing, and yes, march in parades. I welcome any and all feedback to this- I’d prefer we ALL get to march in the parade, as well as not get booed for doing it because some people were jerks.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

I'd like to point out, that it has been stated several times that the GBFans board seems normal except for a few individuals. I am sorry if you got lumped into a situation where a few individuals made the whole group look bad. But that is the point of objecting to those sort of actions. If you don't defy the troublemakers and bullies, they get more powerful.

Some of the GBFans objected in that very thread. IMHO they were a bit too light hearted about the situation. It can also be said that there was an over-reaction to the situation. I would not agree with that opinion, but I definitely can see the reason someone would think it.

I've tried not to be a typical internet ranter about this. The title of this thread is a bit strong, and there have been some nay-sayers. On the whole, I think this has gone the way intended. Discussion and awareness.

See you at the Parade!

[southeastgb.livejournal.com]

I agree with real_gb_at_dc. I have been in the parade and at Dragoncon the last few years, with a couple of those with the Ghostbusters group. I shy away from GB Fans boards because of some of the attitudes, but do go there for the resources and plans they have.

I hate everything has gotten this far, but I feel the need to say something after a couple of comments here and the now-deleted FB post.

First, I haven't felt any sort of pressure or disdain from the Ghostbusters for my inaccurate costume at D*C. I think they mostly are a bunch of decent people when you meet them in person. They have always been nice to me at least.

Second, It will be easy to be a ghostbuster in the parade and still not mingle with the bad ones. They have had 50 to 80 gbs in the parade every year with lots of the cars. They are very spread out, so it should not be too much of an issue.

Just go and have a good time. I wish these few would not have started anything, and as a Ghostbusters fan and costumer, I am ashamed. I hope we all just have a good time.

[crazeyal.livejournal.com]

Don't be ashamed. Shame is a useless emotion. Be repentant, assertive, defiant, remorseful... hell, be AVENGING }8^D>

The point is, YOU didn't do the bullying. As far as I can tell, the entirety of GBFans aren't involved, just some nasty individuals that belong to the forums. As long as we stand up to such actions, everything is golden.